In many situations, parents do try to keep their children in positive direction, but the western culture has a stonger impact on the children than their parents. The society acts as an obstacle in the child’s learning and implementing of islamic values. When you see more muslims around you, you are can be motivated to become a muslim. Women feel discouraged to wear hijab in those countries because they face discrimination and majority of the women do not do so.

And there will be show off muslims where ever you go. But your previous comment only referred to showoff muslims in Saudi arabia because of which I mentioned that you can find them in other countries as well.

In the end, it is the parents’responsibility to make sure their children are brought up correctly. If this is done, then no amount of Western culture will corrupt them. If this is not done, then no amount of societal pressure will stop them from corruption.

As for religious Muslims showing off, I’d say that’s no different to what happens in Muslim states.

It is not ideal to criticize muslims in Saudi Arabia by saying that all the islam they practice is to avoid the religious police. Would you criticize the wana be criminals of not committing crime in fear of police? No, Then why criticize the muslims,

And you do have to agree that the muslims who migrate to western nations in search of better opportunities do suffer a cultural clash of the vast extremes and get lost between them. Large number of immigrants who migrate when they are young, adoloscents or teenagers get spolied because they are exposed to the negative culture at such a small age.

And muslims in western countries do have a tendency to show off as well. Since practicing muslims easily come under attention of muslims as being the religious elite, there are some among those who show off.

Well, I live in a country where that tends not to happen so no. But are you saying the Liberals haven’t done so?

“Or that funds donated to charity organizations are spent where they’re supposed to be sent and not eaten up?”
Yeah, I make sure that any money I donate does end up where it’s meant to. Again, are you saying Liberals don’t care about corruption?

“One type of Muslim becomes completely and irreversibly “corrupted”. Most undergo some partial change, here or there. Very few stick wholly to their values.”
Very few become ‘totally corrupted and I’d say most stick to their values. Living in SA or the West makes little difference – the only one being that in the West, the piety is genuine instead of the charade people have in SA to fend off the religious police.

And how exactly is banning alcohol (which is forbidden in Islam) the same as banning cultural events (which aren’t)?

“But since you’re so worried about anti-hypocrisy, why not start a campaign of celebrating illicit relationships between married and unmarried couples? ”
The point is, you have no right to judge. It is indeed hyprocritical for conservatives to ban events that supposedly ‘celebrate/propagate’illicit relationships when some of them are guilty of such behaviour.

“And don’t forget that their “liberals”, as indeed most liberals everywhere, started out with the same arguments as right here on this page. ”
Not exactly no. Liberals elsewhere did not start off with such ideas. Cultural events were never banned.

“I don’t remember saying anything about banning female scholarships or driving, so please don’t put words in my mouth, be so quick to judge, or speak with preconceived notions.”
Female scholarships were mentioned in the original post and conservatives are behind the idea of not allowing women to drive.

“You missed the whole point of my first comment. You still didn’t prove that liberals are actually onto something constructive by whining about not being allowed to ‘have a good time’. (And have you forgotten that people can, and have for centuries had a much better time through avenues *other* than the ones being banned?)”
Liberals organise such events in the first place, only to see them get banned. Conservatives on the other hand, are too busy trying to impose their values on the rest of society to add anything constructive to it. And are you saying culture hasn’t existed over the past couple of centuries? Poetry? Art? How about conservatives look in the mirror before attempting to interfere in the lives of others.

I would appreciate if you could e-mail me at salmanabdulaziz@hotmail.com. I would like to speak with you regarding something which I will explain to you later.

Regards,
Salman

So what have you done about transparency and fairness? Have you tried to ensure that people are allowed jobs by virtue of merit versus “waasta”? Or that funds donated to charity organizations are spent where they’re supposed to be sent and not eaten up? Or what?

There are a few types of Muslims in the West, please don’t make assumptions of whether or not I’ve ever seen them or even been one of them myself. One type of Muslim becomes completely and irreversibly “corrupted”. Most undergo some partial change, here or there. Very few stick wholly to their values. Same as on-ground. Some only need a television to get “corrupted”, some are strong and hold onto their values regardless of peer pressure. This is irrelevant to the fact that in *general*, human minds begin to think along the lines of ideas that they are constantly exposed to. No, banning wine will not completely stop wine, there WILL be black markets, do not jump to the conclusion that anyone is being an ostrich and trying to deny that. But i’m sure you’ll agree that an average person is more prone to consuming (or “getting corrupted by”) something that is readily accessible and rampant in culture rather than when it is hidden away and requires efforts to reach?

But since you’re so worried about anti-hypocrisy, why not start a campaign of celebrating illicit relationships between married and unmarried couples? Since even teens are at it, why not broadcast it on every channel? We shouldn’t be worried about corrupting minds, since these thing happens anyway, right? Oh, am I being extreme? Porn and concerts aren’t the same, you say?

But you should keep something in mind. The *principle* is the same. And if today you apply it on cultural music and dance, tomorrow it’ll be applied on violent, unconstrained music and dance, and the day after on the vulgarity and sex that that unconstrained ‘entertainment’would promote. Pretty soon we’d be onto how “homosexuality” shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet, but paraded out in the open. (That’s right, kids. A new avenue for you to explore, never mind that 98% of you wouldn’t ever have thought of it if we hadn’t been flashing it in your faces). After we’ve all decided homosexuality is just great (which we’re already doing in the rest of the world), what comes next? Incest? Deterioration and corruption happens in stages, and if you don’t keep a check, boundaries will be broken until there’s no looking back. However small it may start out, this is a statistical and historical fact that liberals would do good to open their eyes and ears and understand.

Never mind the ban on wine in the US, can you tell me where they are now, after *lifting* the ban? I hope you’re not deluded into thinking that the US (an economic, spiritual and psychological disaster, with among the highest rates in the world of broken families and teen pregnancies) is a ‘free’, ‘democratic’country whose model you would like to emulate? Don’t forget how the majority of them, too, were conservatives (remember the 19th century full-length dresses and veils? The anti-Coca Cola riots? The Magna Carta, that gave the *death penalty* to dealers of interest?) And don’t forget that their “liberals”, as indeed most liberals everywhere, started out with the same arguments as right here on this page. I repeat, deterioration happens in stages. But the liberal mindset persistently suffers from short-sightedness and historical amnesia.

I don’t remember saying anything about banning female scholarships or driving, so please don’t put words in my mouth, be so quick to judge, or speak with preconceived notions.

I also mentioned clearly that I do not agree with all the methods employed by conservatives, and that while their motives are positive, they should also try to provide *appealing* alternatives for what they’re trying to ban. You seemed to have overlooked that part of my comment.

You missed the whole point of my first comment. You still didn’t prove that liberals are actually onto something constructive by whining about not being allowed to ‘have a good time’. (And have you forgotten that people can, and have for centuries had a much better time through avenues *other* than the ones being banned?)